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RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

Hailey — Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:05:24 GMT

Sorry you lost the guppy. I wish I could recommend a good online fish store, but I have never used any. I find it hard to imagine that there isn't a decent pet store within 50 miles of you though, and with what you probably paid for shipping, you could drive there. Did you do any online searches for pet stores in your area?

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

ocean-size — Fri, 27 Jun 2008 11:37:26 GMT

Alas, the second sick guppy died sometime yesterday. It took me quite awhile to locate him. Interestingly, his white spot never got bigger. I guess we'll never know 100% what killed him, but parasites certainly seem the likely culrpit, as my water parameters are pristine (if a little hard, but zero pH fluctuation) and I am using a U.V. sterilizer. Therefore I suspect the water conditions at LiveAquaria.com are to blame. To their credit, my swordtails that I got from them seem to be having a grand ol' time...it is just the guppies that seem to be having a hard time.

On that note, it has been over a week since I emailed them and they have yet to respond. I guess I am really under a barrel here...normally I would simply not shop with them ever again, but the freshwater selection at my LFS stinks, so the only place I can go for variety is online, and my tank is still not 100% stocked yet. Can anyone recommend a good online vendor other than LiveAquaria?

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

David Lass — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:43:04 GMT

All fish have a "parasite load" all the time, and their natural immune system usually takes care of it. The important thing is whether a fish is swimming normally, not being picked on by other fish, and most of all whether it is eating normally. Unfortunately, fish die for unknown reasons all the time. All we can do is to keep the water condition as good as possible, and feed them well.

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

Hailey — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:57:51 GMT

ocean-size (6/25/2008)

So now my main concern is the deafening slience coming from LiveAquaria.com. They don't seem particularly concerned with responding to my email regarding the loss of the first fish. So much for their "guarantee". Buyer beware.

That is disheartening. Let us know if they get back to you and how it goes from there, and keep us updated on the fish.

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

ocean-size — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:23:25 GMT

At this point I am wondering if maybe I am a bit paranoid, due to the loss of the first fish. Now that I've had two days to observe, it seems to me that this "spot" on the second fish is not getting bigger at all. In fact, upon really really close inspection, it looks like it may simply be a scale that is slightly damaged, which would explain why it stands out when all the surrounding scales reflect light at the same time and this one does not. Unfortunately I could not get a clear picture.

Of course, it might also be a parasite lodged under the scale that is causing the scale to stick out. I doubt it is damage due to being picked on by another fish. Although I have a lot of males in my tank of various species, it is a peaceful tank. Some chasing goes on during feeding, but no fin nipping or anything like that.

The main reason why I think I may be paranoid is because the fish seems to be slowly regaining its composure. He is swimming considerably less sluggish today, although not quite 100% yet. He stays near the top of the tank with his other guppy buddies, unlike the last two days where he was sulking on or near the bottom. There is simply a more brisk nature to his movements. I will relax a lot more once I see him eat. The last two feedings he has shown little to no interest in eating, but based on how he is acting today I would be quite surprised if he doesn't eat.

Based on this and your input I am feeling like what I am witnessing is simply a little shock due to the new tank. Nevertheless I appreciate the link with the disease diagnoses; I will check that out and keep an eye on the "spot" to make sure things don't get worse.

Thanks all!

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

Hailey — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:42:49 GMT

Try checking out the disease diagnosis resources here... http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/diseases.html After looking at it myself I am thinking possibly fish lice, Chilodonella, lymphocyctus, or a sporozoan of some sort. You can see the fish though while I'm just going based on descriptions, so you'd be a lot better at diagnosing it.

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

princessotfu — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:30:48 GMT

It sorta sounds like a parasite to me too, although nothing I've heard about before. The only thing I could think of would be to use Praziquantel, which can knock quite a wide range of parasites. I'm very wary of using medications without knowing exactly what the problem is though.

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

Lumberjack — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:09:36 GMT

I am thinking parasite... it does not sound like a desease to me.

A picture might help...

Any fish that has been exposed could be infected. Isolate any that have symptoms and dont mix any of the exposed fish with any other of your fish, also do not share nets or other equipment as they can also be a carrier.

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

Hailey — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:52:07 GMT

That is definitely not ich...I'm not sure what it is though. I wish I could be of more help. All I can currently suggest is to move any affected fish to a hospital tank in case this is contagious.

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

ocean-size — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:17:39 GMT

Just one white spot in both cases, that appears to grow rather quickly. The same location in both cases, more or less (right side, slightly below the beginning of the dorsal fin). I was able to see it in the first case because it was so large by the time I noticed it (about 1/8" by the time the fish died). In the second case the spot is still quite small (about the size of one scale only) but I was able to notice it because it does not reflect light the same way a scale does...so as the fish would swim and change direction, I noticed this spot because it contrasted dully with the shiny-ness of the scales around it. I never would have noticed it if I didn't look so closely once I noticed the fish sitting on the bottom of the tank.

Spot in the first case was bigger than a grain of salt, and looked a little fuzzy, like a fungus or something? There seemed to be blood or bruising around the spot, and it almost looked as if the blood was spreading though the intestinal tract because there was a red line leading from the spot to the anus. I am way too much of a newb to really make a diagnosis like this...just making a best-efforts guess. In the second case the spot is still quite small and the fish seems to have perked up a bit since yesterday (he has not returned to the bottom of the tank), but he did not eat when I fed them yesterday.

I will try and get a pic today when I get home from work.

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

Hailey — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:57:07 GMT

Just so it is clear, the shock and white spot are unrelated, except for the fact that a fish already sick with something (like a parasite) would more easily succumb to shock. That is the only relationship between the two.

Ich is technically under the skin, but it doesn't really appear to be so unless you are examining it with a microscope, or at least a magnifying glass. About how large were the spots, and was there only one on each fish? Was it in the same exact place on both fish?

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

ocean-size — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:47:55 GMT

Thanks, guys.

Your comments certainly are reasonable. I guess shock seemed like an unlikely culprit because I couldn't imagine it would cause a growth like this white spot, plus it has been almost a week since the second fish started showing any signs of stress or disease. If acclimation were the problem I would have thought the second fish would have shown signs well before now.

When you say that Ich looks like grains of salt, would that be on the skin or underneath the skin? This white spot in both cases looks like it is growing inside the fish, and in the case of the first fish I noticed some internal bleeding around the spot that worsened as the fish got closer and closer to death. It does not seem like grains of salt to me, which would enforce your suspicions.

Assuming that this is some sort of shock-related parasite, can you suggest any treatment? Or is this one of those "Cross your fingers and hope for the best"-type situations? Should I remove the fish while waiting to see?

BTW, the fish in question are guppies. I realize my water is a tad on the hard side, but I gather from what I read that tank-raised varieties are much more tolerant of water conditions that are different from their native habitat. For the record, I also bought some swordtails from LiveAquaria and they seem to be flourishing, but as I'm learning, it can take days or weeks to know for sure.

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

Hailey — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:04:16 GMT

Yes, ich looks like grains of salt, so if the spots are bigger than that, it may be some other parasite. Also, it does not kill quickly like that. Shock is the, most likely culprit, even if you have acclimated many fish this way before. These fish came from far away and may have had water parameters very different from yours (and different from the stores you are used to buying from). The amount of time acclimation takes, and the process used, to some degree has to be based on the difference in parameters between the tank water and bag water. Whenever I get fish from and new source I test the bag water to see how different it is from mine and acclimate accordingly. Also, already weakened fish (such as those with a parasite) will succumb to shock when others may not, so there may be more than one problem here. Can you get photos? Also, what are the fish you bought, and which ones have died or are dying?

RE: Odd white spot, kills fish

Lumberjack — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 06:22:16 GMT

Ick normally looks like grains of salt....

Transporting fish is very stressfull to them and it is normal to lose a few. Usually the ones you lose were not in great health to begin with. Any problems they had before transport are worsened by all the stress.

Odd white spot, kills fish

ocean-size — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:12:17 GMT

I recently bought some fish online from LiveAquaria.com.

I acclimated them EXACTLY according to their instructions.

Within 24 hours, one of the new fish was dead. After I accimated it and removed it from the bag, it seemed to be doing fine. About four hours later when I turned the tank light on, it was sitting on the bottom of the tank, breathing heavily. Not sure what to do, I just left it and decided to keep an eye on it. An hour or so later I noticed a rather large white spot under its skin on the side, underneath the front of the dorsal fin. I removed it to a bucket with some tank water in it, where it shortly died. I highly doubt shock is involved...I have successfully acclimated 24 other fish with no problems, including this species.

I emailed LiveAquaria.com about this on Thursday and have yet to receive a reply. (!!!!) Now I am really upset because earlier today I noticed another one of the fish that I purchased from them is ALSO now sitting on the bottom of the tank breathing heavily, and it has a very tiny white spot on its side just under the front of the dorsal fin. It too appears to be under the skin. And I swear this spot has gotten bigger in the four hours or so since I first noticed it.

Is this the dreaded Ich I hear so much about? If so, what the heck do I do? I have no medicine on hand.

Just rechecked my levels: ammonia and nitrite are zero, nitrate is less than 5ppm, pH is 7.6, KH is 7...all unchanged since my last test a few days ago.