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RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Sat, 24 May 2008 12:10:53 GMT

While I was out shopping for a new tank the other day I found some aqua clear 70 filters on sale....

I always knew the whispers were POS but never really realised how bad they were....

Looks like I will be getting a 75 gallon tank...... and 1 more aqua clear 70...

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Wed, 21 May 2008 16:39:39 GMT

I cant kick out my best friend....

I am watching craigs list and the local ads but large tanks are a bit scarce around here. My economic stimulus is earmarked for something else.... Hopefully the saltwater shop will replace a few tanks soon.....

There sure is a lot of differance between a 6 inch pleco and a 10 inch one especially in how much er.... mulm it creates. Your right I simply cant keep him in the 36 for much longer.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Hailey — Wed, 21 May 2008 11:13:56 GMT

Wow. I know your tank is overstocked, but I would never expect such a water quality and maintenance issue from your stocking. My suggestion to you would be to rehome the pleco asap and that should help cut back the waste considerably. I would also feed very lightly (maybe once every few days, just enough for the fish to eat in a couple minutes), just until you can upgrade the tank and filter. Other than that, vacuum thoroughly at water changes, net out excess food daily, and maybe do larger water changes. And yes, a 500gph filter with your current stocking sounds about right, though I would probably go with a canister or wet-dry instead of a HOB.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Wed, 21 May 2008 11:02:48 GMT

I often forget just how well UGF's work as well since I have used them so much. I suspect that my problems have simply gone well beyond what even a UGF can deal with.

The tank is a 36 gallon bowfront with 3 blood parrots and a pleco. The pleco was suppose to have been a bristlenose when my son bought it but now that it has grown it is apparent it is a common and its sheer size is creating the problem. For now I have a 20-40 whisper HOB filter on it with a sponge over the intake. The regular cartriges were not lasting more the a few hours before clogging. I added a power head with a foam filter last night but the filters are all clogged again...

I realise I need to get a much larger tank, But I am just a bit frustrated with all the extra work I am having to do untill I can get it. So far I am managing to keep up with the water quality but sooner or later I fear something is going to break....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Hailey — Wed, 21 May 2008 09:18:02 GMT

I'm surprised the UGF had helped that much and that you're having such an issue now (I use only HOBs on all my tanks and have never had the sort of issues you describe). What size is the tank? how big is the pleco, and what are the other fish? What is the gph rating on your filter?

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Wed, 21 May 2008 06:43:03 GMT

Well things are not exactly going well without my UGF. The whisper HOB is being totally over whelmed by the dietris created by my pleco. I rigged one of the power heads as a sponge filter to help but I am still having to do daily water changes to keep the tank reasonably clean.

Moa's spread sheet says I need a 500 gph filter minimum BTW and I suspect that is about right. I think I am simply going to have to get a much larger tank and a lot better filtration to fix this.....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Sat, 10 May 2008 18:54:41 GMT

I heard one of the major problems with most nitrate systems is the bacteria release sulfer compounds as a part of their metabolism.....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

David Lass — Sat, 10 May 2008 12:23:44 GMT

The sponge on the intake works fine, but you have to squeeze it out every so often or the flow slows down.

Not much of a fan of UG filters, I'm actually testing one now that is a reverse flow, with "towers" on each back corner that have "bio-balls" and small "bricks" (I don't know what else to call the, that provide an anoxic environment for bacteria to break down nitrates. The system comes with a HOB filter, and packets of carbon and zeolite that are replaced every week or two, and additives of trace elements and bacteria starters. So far the plants and fish are doing really well -- as with all of my tanks I have lots of fish -- and there are 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and moderate nitrates. It is an interesting system -- going another 6 weeks or so before I come to final conclusions.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Fri, 09 May 2008 18:36:53 GMT

After a week back on the whisper I remembered why I dislike them. Then I had an idea... I put the sponge filter from my powerhead on the intake to pre filter the water into the filter. I am hoping it will cut down on the constant cleaning the whispers need to keep from clogging....

I sense a cannister somewhere in my future....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Thu, 01 May 2008 11:05:11 GMT

Gee Hailey you forgot to gloat a bit as well... LOL

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Hailey — Thu, 01 May 2008 10:29:03 GMT

LMAO! Welcome to the dark side.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Thu, 01 May 2008 07:24:03 GMT

Well so long UGF...
I needed to move my tank and do some cleaning so I broke it all down. What I found under my plate was a bunch of slime... EEK! I decided to remove the plate/UGF and try running with only a gravel bed for my bio filter and a HOB to help with mechanical and surface agitation.

It was not just the slime that concerned me. All the water I drained out had turned yellow and even tho It tested fine I suspect things were getting a bit unhealthy. But I am not really quite sure why.

It looks like BTO may end up with a convert.....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:55:43 GMT

Well at two months I am still happy with the arrangement. The mulm tends to collect itself in the back corners and is very easy to remove. There is no hiding the mulm as it is not sucked into the gravel so weekly vacuuming is a must for a neat tank.

I did have a few air issues. The syphons proved a bit too touchy and I had to go back to injecting air. My tank is a bit over stocked now and I simply cannot keep O2 levels from falling without a constant source of surface agitation. Even the tiniest pump meets the demand however.

If I were to make a change I would consider using a cannister instead of the powerheads with a surface skimmer for the pickup.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 09:28:23 GMT

Vacuumed today, WOW, the mulm just flew out of the vac without much digging at all. Took my HOB back off and figured out how to install the air syphons onto my powerheads. I am likeing this a lot....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

princessotfu — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:01:17 GMT

[quote]math-only aquarium (2/16/2008)

The plastic easter grass isn't the best bio-media. The thing is, beneficial bacteria are not easyily established on most inorganic substances, especially plastics, and thus the only population that will develop there will be one that either attach themselves to the debris that will become caught in the media or one that have had a lot of time to anchor themselves.

IMO, of course

MOA[/quote]

I'm not sure I buy that, since about a third of the kinds of bio-media I've seen are various plastic shapes. And in fact, the DIY site I got the filter idea from advocated using those little loofah things made from plastic. In addition, most of the gravel used commonly in aquaria is actually coated with inorganic substances, and we all know how well bacteria establish in the gravel.
Either way, it will not be the only bio-media available. I'm not dumping my current Aquaclear ceramic bits, and there is about 3 different layers of filter floss as well. Hopefully, somewhere in there, the bacteria will find a place they like.

Also Lumberjack, I thought of that, I didn't get the normal, shiny easter grass. This stuff is a slightly different variety, completely opaque, and not quite as completely smooth.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:57:21 GMT

to slick a surface to attach to I would guess...

as an update I am noticing that debris is settling on top of my gravel in a much more noticable manner.... I gotta vacuum soon.....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

math-only aquarium — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:36:28 GMT

IMO, of course

MOA

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

princessotfu — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:24:59 GMT

Lumberjack (2/8/2008)

Perhaps the term "bio-media" is a bit too tech-ish for the masses... It sounds like something complicated to most when in fact it is just a place for bacteria to hang on to...

Very true. I'm using plastic easter grass as biomedia for my new sump filter.

I am still using the filter floss as well. I do gravel vaccuum the bottom of my tank a lot, but the mechanical filtration just collects it all in one nice, easy spot to rinse out.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

nautilus29 — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:11:27 GMT

I have sand in all of my tanks I find it alot easier to take care of then trying to get all of the junk out of the gravel with the gravel vac. I just make sure that I stur up all of the sand durring water changes so that anairobic(did I say that right) bacteria dont build up anywhere. on my 55g I have a penquin 350 biowheel and fluval 304 and 205 canisters hooked up to it. Mostly for water flow and benificial bacteria. In my canisters I only use filter floss and some of those rings that came with the filters.

When I Moved my 55g tank from my parents house to the house I live in now I didnt have a mini cycle so I figure my biofiltration must be pretty good.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:36:47 GMT

Well the prefilters arrived and I installed 2 175 gph powerheads in reverse flow configuration for my 36 gallon tank. I also removed the air pump and HOB filter to see how things would work.

So far I am noticing that light debris has a tendancy to float around for a long time in the center of the tank where it is rather obvious... I have also noticed the blood parrots have changed behavior a bit. They are hanging out at the top of the tank when the lights are off. I reinstalled my HOB with out a filter to agitate the surface temporarily just in case there was an O2 problem. The parrots responded by moving to the other side of the tank.....

One thought I had was to get a small filter to skim the surface and provide some movement there.....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:14:56 GMT

Perhaps the term "bio-media" is a bit too tech-ish for the masses... It sounds like something complicated to most when in fact it is just a place for bacteria to hang on to... Then again the companies are pushing a more is better mantra on consumers when in fact anything more then enough is completely wasted.

Oh well, I have decided to do a bit of experimenting and remove my HOB filter. I am also going to install reverse flow on my UGF and see how things go. It should be interesting to see how things are affected...

Just as soon as my power head pre-filters arrive that is... :}

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

math-only aquarium — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:27:08 GMT

As far as most modern research goes, the old distinctions of mechanical (physical) filtration, chemical filtration, and biological filtration are becoming less and less important. In reality, if you can achieve either biological filtration or chemical filtration, then mechanical is usually implicitly taken care of. Also, the notion that mechanical filtration removes wastes from the water flow is completely false (as many of you agree)--if it is still touching the water it will have an effect.

Another interesting question is what is the point of special bio-media. After all, cheap fiber floss will work just as well as bio-balls if used appropriately. That is, each can support the same size of bacteria population under certain conditions. Thus, why do major companies spend some much time researching what is really a very simple concept (and why do they charge so much for it)? My theory is two-fold: 1) they want to make more money and thus create "new" methods and gadgets and 2) people are misinformed on how to make their own, effective bio-media.

MOA

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 09:33:40 GMT

Woah, the last thing I expected was agreement....

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

David Lass — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:01:34 GMT

Yes, as Hailey says, planted tanks are different, and I agree with the procedure of vacuuming a different part of the tank each week. There is a line, that it takes some experience to find out where it is, between letting a tank go and keeping it too clean -- neither are good.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Hailey — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 07:07:04 GMT

I think planted tanks are different in that respect...the plants use the mulm created by the breakdown of organic material in the gravel. I believe non-planted tanks (if they have gravel...sand is different) should be vacuumed regularly. I have sand in all of my tanks except two, and one of the two is planted, so I rarely vacuum (the sand tanks get stirred though).

When it comes to filters, it really is the biofilter that matters, and the water movement (stagnant water is not good). But powerheads and a cycled gravel bed should work fine in place of a mechanical filter, as long as it is regularly vacuumed and the stocking is relatively conservative. Saltwater tanks run this way all the time...mechanical filters can actually be a problem because they cause nitrate build up.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

David Lass — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 05:43:48 GMT

To tell the truth, I have never vacuumed the gravel in any of my tanks. I do water changes religiously once a week. Now I have lots of live plants in the tanks, and that makes it really impossible to vac the gravel, or at least very difficult. I have piles of Malaysian livebearing snails, the sall cone shaped guys, in all of my tanks, and they do a great job of stirring up the gravel, as do botias. I have pretty heavy mechanical filtration on most of my tanks, bt that is because I have really heavy fish loads.

RE: Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

bto83 — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 04:43:33 GMT

I've never placed much importance on mechanical filtration, because in the end it all comes down to how adequate your bio-filter is.

I do appreciate having some type of barrier in the filters though, because that way any gunk that does get sucked up ends up defiling my sponge instead of my bio-media. Which means I can wring it out or do whatever I want to get the sponge clean while the bio-media rarely needs even a gentle swishing in tankwater to clean it.

I could see having a valid concern over suspended debris making your water look really dirty (like some lakes/rivers) depending on your setup and fish. However, I'm presently running a penguin with nothing but a bio-wheel in my guppy tank (no cartridge for mechanical filtration, and the bio-wheel doesn't trap debris either). I don't have any problems with large "stuff" floating around or cloudiness in the water even though there's nothing in the filter to catch it.

Thoughts on Mechanical Filtration

Lumberjack — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:52:16 GMT

I was doing a lot of research on sumps and other filtrations. In one of the articles I was reading was the comment that a teaspoon of flake food was enough to poison a 90 gallon tank if there was no Bio-filter. Now the purpose of mechanical filtration is to remove solid waste from the water so it does not pollute the tank BUT since most of this waste breaks down to its inert components in a matter of hours and since most filters are not cleaned daily I have to wonder what the point of the filter really is.

Consider what happens when no power filter is present. All the waste falls into the gravel and breaks down to its inert components which are removed with a gravel vac. Does it really make a differance if the material breaks down in a HOB filter or laying in a gravel bed?

I guess what it boils down to, Why have a HOB or other mechanical filter when you have to vac the gravel anyway? Does anyone actually have a tank that does not require substrate cleaning?