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RE: New to Saltwater

Hailey — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:19:36 GMT

I'm not familiar with that species, so I'll let someone else handle that question. From what I have read on it just now though, it sounds OK, but two clowns and one of those would just about fully stock your tank (maybe one more fish, but the less you have, the easier the tank will be to keep stable).

RE: New to Saltwater

FastFoward5k — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:49:24 GMT

Would a chalk basslet be good in this type of tank? Should I put in a veggie clip, also? Thanks.

RE: New to Saltwater

Hailey — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:19:47 GMT

No to the two cardinals...I wouldn't try that in under a 100g tank (saltwater fish are very territorial and don't generally like their own kind). Clownfish don't need an anemone by any means, and will even breed in a tank without one. They'll just host a flat rock or something and will breed there. Don't expect to save the fry if they breed in a community tank though...if you want to breed them, do it in a separate tank and then move the parents back to the main tank when the fry are free swimming. As for a cave, clowns are just not cave type fish. They like being out in the water column and will find a place to call home on their own.

RE: New to Saltwater

FastFoward5k — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 05:54:05 GMT

Hi, and thanks for the reply.

I found out that the tank is actually around 40 gallons, so do you think I could do maybe 2 pajama cardinalfish? Would clownfish still breed without an anemone, becuase I would like to try to get my clownfish to breed. I think I may hold off on anemone for a while if my clowns will be okay without it. I might try to get a cave or rock that could provide a good hiding place for them, but would the chalk basslet try to hide in that too because I have read they love to hide in caves and rocks?

RE: New to Saltwater

Nep2Ns PlumR — Tue, 10 Jun 2008 04:47:28 GMT

I think you've chosen some good fish to start with. Clowns are hardy fish and most are aquacultured so they won't have to adapt to tank conditions. All are good community fish and reef safe as well, this gives you maximum flexability. I think that you will need to adjust your quantities if you're still thinking about that 30g tank though. Maybe the 2 clowns, 1 cardinal and the chalk basslet, and that will require close attention to water quallity. I'd start with the clowns and add the others after a couple of months maybe.

Liverock is an absulute. Provides bacteria and substrate for denitrification and biodiversity (bugs and critters). As far as the live sand, if it's real live sand, wild harvested with again live bugs and critters, I'm all for it. If its the bagged stuff sitting on the shelf at the LFS, it's just added expense. All you're buying is aragonite sand with bacteria cultures added. You may gain a week or so in cycing time but the same bacteria will be provided by the liverock. It will seed the sand at no cost just a little extra time. (Again, don't get in a hurry.) Coral banded shrimp are very cool inverts, but bear in mind that later fish choices will need to exclude anything that will eat shrimp.

Back to the anemone again. If you want to plan a tank for a future anemone, cool. If your planning on adding one say within the first year or two I'd say it's a bad idea. Even E. quadricolor (Bubble tipped), though the better choice of those available, are not at all hardy. Don't let anyone tell you different. If you need convincing, just start reading through the back threads in this saltwater forum. You'll find numerous starting reef keepers who thought "it can't be but so tough". The next thing you know they're posting threads wanting to know why their anemone is dying and what they can do to save it. These aren't bad people or even bad aquarists, they just made a bad decision. We've even had people kill one and then want to run back out and buy another to kill. There are far too many other animals that are equally as cool and much better choices to learn reef husbandry with.

As for easy corals, without investing in expensive lighting and filtration, most mushrooms, zooanthids and palythoas are easy to keep. Some leather corals are pretty hardy but not all. Xenia is a very cool soft coral but is some what unpredictable. I've propagated this coral for sale and had it growing like a weed. I've known people who have great reefs and just can't get it to grow at all. Go figure.

Again, you're on the right path. If you can stay patient and avoid impulse buys (research every animal before you buy), you'll end up with a beautiful, headache reduced reef.

RE: New to Saltwater

FastFoward5k — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:34:52 GMT

Never mind about the anenome, I found one: the BTA (bubble tip anemone). They are supposed to be easy (for an anemone), compatible with Ocearris (did I spell that right?) Clownfish, and relatively small.

I think I have my list of aquarium stuff planned out:

Invertabrates:

Live Caribbean Sand, Live Rock, Banded Coral Shrimp, Bubble Tip Anemone

Fish:

Ocearris Clownfish (2 males [one will change sex as get older]), 3 Pajama Cadinalfish, Chalk Basslet

Anything wrong with this, please let me know.

RE: New to Saltwater

FastFoward5k — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:17:35 GMT

Thanks for replying.

I think that my main fish is the Common (or Percula) Clownfish. I would like to get a pair and then work around that, but for now I'm just going to do research. Do you have any suggestions for compatible and easy to care for corals? Could I do an anenome with a lot of caution and work? If so, what is an easy (in terms of anenomes) and compatible one?

RE: New to Saltwater

Hailey — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:14:11 GMT

Nep2Ns PlumR said it well. Narrow the fish you want down to one absolute must have and build the stocking list around that. If you haven't already bought the tank, I suggest you pick the "must have" fish and whether it will be a reef or not before the tank, and actually build the whole system around those decisions. And if you want a host anemone, I would look for a larger tank...most get pretty big and they need absolutely pristine water conditions pretty much all the time (they can't take the fluctuation of parameters in a small tank). It is very important to care well for anemones given that most are wild collected, and they live basically indefinitely in the wild (in the hundreds of years), but most survive only a few months in aquariums.

RE: New to Saltwater

Nep2Ns PlumR — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:10:48 GMT

Wow, very inthusiastic, and obvoiusly doing some research.

If I may make a suggestion or two. Per your posts, you're heading in the right direction. Keep researching your animals (fishes, inverts and corals) paying special attention to adult size, feeding habbits and natural habitat. Start making a list (as you have) of fish you like, but continue to narrow it down untill you have just one fish that you just gotta have. I'd advise starting with fishes that are described as very hardy or recomended for beginners. This is going to limit your choices somewhat but in the end, will save you headaches and money (and quite likely the lives of some fishes). Do the same with your inverts and corals. Now choose between these 3 which means more to you. If the fish you've chosen is known to nip at corals, is it more important to you to have the fish or the corals? The short version is that your prioratizing exactly what type of system you want to build.

This excersize serves several purposes. If you decide you want a fish only system, you won't need high intensity lighting and a wet/dry trickle filter will serve you well. You may also want to think about a larger tank if you want to keep more than 3 or 4 fish. On the other hand, if you're set on keeping corals (same applies to hardieness/recomended for beginners), you could easily get away with a 30 g tank but would need better (more expensive) lighting and you wouldn't want to use a trickle filter. Instead you would probably want a good protien skimmer.

As you can see, it all interacts. Every decision you make affects what you can keep. Just one more thing. The anemone. Please take the time to learn the husbandry required to keep fishes and corals before you try keeping one of these great animals. They are by no means easy to keep and the vast majority die in captivity beacuse they were "just so cool I had to have one". Keep giong like you're going. The skill to keep an anemone will come.

One last thing. TAKE YOUR TIME! Remember this, "Nothing good happens in a reef aquarium quickly". Words to live by!

RE: New to Saltwater

FastFoward5k — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 06:38:21 GMT

Sorry to keep asking questions, but do you think I could also put in one Chalk Basslet. Thanks.

RE: New to Saltwater

FastFoward5k — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 20:53:34 GMT

Never mind about the sweetlips, I see what you mean by BIG. I was looking them up on a website and when I saw Max. Size: 6' 5", I was turned off a little. The one I saw in my local aquarium store was about 2" so it must be a baby, and I was thinking they would stay about that size, so you can imagine I was a little turned off. Oh and do you think I could also put in a Royal Gramma.

Okay so if all this is okay, here is what my new tank would be like:

Tank and Setup:

30 Gallon Cube Tank, Stand, Hood and Flourescent Bulb, Filter (not sure which one yet, maybe you could suggest one that is good, but not too expensive)

Non-Fish:

Caribbean Live Sand, Live Rock, Anenome, Banded Coral Shrimp (just one)

Fish:

3 Pajama Cardinalfish, 2 Clownfish, 1 (maybe an established pair?) Royal Gramma, and if you have any other suggetions please say

Thank you SO much.

Oh and one more thing: do you think when I am MUCH, MUCH more experienced I could keep a Picasso Triggerfish and a Spotted Sweetlips (those are my two favourite large fish) in a VERY large aquarium (like 200+ gallons)?

RE: New to Saltwater

FastFoward5k — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 20:33:55 GMT

Oh, thank you so much Hailey! I found a book about saltwater tanks and good fish for newbies, and I've started my research that I'll be doing forever. I have a few more questions. But do you think I could still do a spotted sweetlips, and just make the tank bigger, becuase I really like those. And I would not want a starfish. And would a Banded Coral shrimp clean good? Could I just do Pajama Cardinals? Would it be better to do live rock than coral? Could I also add in a Common Clownfish and an anenome? If you check again could you please reply, thanks.

RE: New to Saltwater

Hailey — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:33:18 GMT

Welcome to the salty side of the hobby. However, your stocking list has some major issues. Saltwater tanks, particularly reefs, need to be stocked very, very lightly, and very carefully. You don't want any more than one small (under 3-4 inch full grown) fish per ten gallons, and you definitely don't want any large fish like a tang or sweetlips of any sort.

You also generally don't want multiples of the same kind of fish or closely related fish in a small tank (and by small, when referring to saltwater tanks, I mean less than 100 gallons) or multiple kinds of shrimp. That rules out the groups of cardinals and either the coral banded shrimp or cleaners.

In addition, many of the fish and invertebrates you mentioned are not "reef safe", meaning they will eat corals or other invertebrates like your shrimp (like the sweetlips, chocolate chip starfish, and possibly the hawkfish, which is iffy).

To make all this simpler, I'll just go through your list and say what you could keep out of the list. You could easily house one of either type of cardinal (possibly a small group of the candy stripe, but I am not sure on that one as I am not too familiar with that species) but not both types, the skunk cleaner shrimp or a coral banded shrimp, and a blue streaked goby, if what you mean by that is a neon goby. If it is some other type it may not work, but I can't find anything by that name (generally if you can it is best to go by scientific names when referring to saltwater fish as they may share common names or the common names many be regional). You may also be able to get away with the hawkfish, but it may be a problem in a reef. Those three fish would fully stock the tank though, and all the others are definitely out no matter what because of size or not being reef-safe.

I think you need to do a lot more research before committing to this. Saltwater tanks, particularly reefs, are not easy to maintain at all, and small ones like the one you are planning are even harder. I'd pick up copies of The Conscientious Marine Aquarist and The New Marine Aquarium and read them cover to cover. Also read up on WetWebMedia all the saltwater topics, especially set up 1 and 2, maintenance/operation, and about livestock. Here's the link to that. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/index.htm

New to Saltwater

FastFoward5k — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 06:03:05 GMT

I was looking at my local fish store, and I became interested in researching and maybe later getting a saltwater tank. I have had some experience in freshwater, but this would be my first time even like touching a saltwater tank.) I found a 30-gallon, cube-shaped tank that was very nice looking (and not too expensive). I would like set up a reef, and also put in fish and invertabrates. The invertabrates I would like would be a Coral Banded Shrimp, some Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, and a Chocolate Chip starfish. Some fish I would really like to put in are: a Spotted Sweetlips, 3 Pajama Cardinalfish, a Longnosed Hawkfish, 3 Candy-Striped Cardinalfish, a Blue-Streaked Goby, and a Sailfin Tang. I would like to know if this is a good idea, if you have any suggestions for fish I should add or take out, if I should not do a reef, etc. But please reply!