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RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:34:12 GMT

I'll try to get the test kits verified. They should be okay because there from a good brand. I'll start doing 25% water changes.

Thanks again for the help.

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 05:26:31 GMT

The readings should be changing. Are you sure your test kits are right? I'd have the readings verified by your lfs. And I'd start doing 25% water changes each time...the other ones are too small to make enough of a difference.

RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Sun, 01 Jun 2008 05:00:56 GMT

I have been doing 2 liter water changes twice a week. I did the 25% water change only once. All of the test readings are the same accept for the salinity which is 1.025.

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Fri, 30 May 2008 13:56:25 GMT

How often have you been doing the water changes, and are they all about 25%? What are all your readings (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, salinity) now?

RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Fri, 30 May 2008 12:59:23 GMT

I've been doing water changes with the distilled water. Yesterday I did about a 25% water change with the distilled water. After that I tested the water and the ammonia level was still 2 ppm. Before the water change the PJ cardinalfish died the same way the others did. I am worried about my corals. I can't seem to get the ammonia level lowered before they die too.

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:27:48 GMT

No problem...that's what we're here for.

RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Thu, 22 May 2008 13:28:08 GMT

Thanks for all the good info. Thank you for taking the time to help me out. I am a beginner at this so I am glad to have people that are willing to help out.

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Thu, 22 May 2008 05:46:23 GMT

I'll second the skimmer suggestion, as well as the suggestion to remove the filter if you have plenty of live rock and powerheads for water movement. You can leave the filter itself on, but remove all the media inside it so it is basically just for water movement. You can also add some carbon to it occasionally to polish the water and get out any yellowing compounds, or put in some floss short term just to remove particulate matter when needed.

For a skimmer, my recommendation is an Aqua-C Remora. I have the Remora Pro (for bigger tanks), and I love it. It's easy to use, plug and play, and collects some nice skimmate for a HOB skimmer. Or, if you have a sump/refugium/etc you can find many good in-sump skimmers.

RE: Cyanide?

Nep2Ns PlumR — Thu, 22 May 2008 04:57:58 GMT

Also check with the fish store. They may sell you RO-DI water cheaper than you can buy distilled at the grocery store, at least until you can get your own unit. Be aware that RO units at best use about 4 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of clean water, some are as bad as 10 to 1. If water usage is a concern for you (running off a well, water bill, etc) buying your water may be a better option.

I'd think about getting rid of that power filter and replacing it with a small hang-on skimmer too. The sponges/filter media in power filters don't actually remove anything from the water, they just catch and hold it until it's cleaned. In the mean time it's a substantial source of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. Most books on reef systems will recommend cleaning this type of filter daily or not using it at all. A skimmer removes protein based pollutants from the water column completely. Still needs cleaning to remain efficient, but doesn't continue to pollute the water in the interim.

Just for GP thought I'd throw in that smaller tanks are actually more difficult to keep than larger ones. Water parameters shift much more quickly making it that much more important to be aware of everything that goes into the tank. Ya got lots of info here, hope it helps to solve your problem.

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Wed, 21 May 2008 19:14:16 GMT

Well, in that case, looks like it is RO or distiled water only for you now (assuming your test kits are right...have the numbers double checked at the lfs). I'd pick up an RO unit for your home personally (I wouldn't want to drink or cook with water with those levels of ammonia and nitrite in them either).

RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Wed, 21 May 2008 15:51:07 GMT

I just recently tested the tap water and the results came out to be the same as the water in the tank.

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Wed, 21 May 2008 13:47:23 GMT

Distilled water (or RO...you can get your own small unit for your home so you don't have to buy bottled water) is a better choice than tap, but it may not be the tap giving you those numbers. Test the tap water after letting it sit in a container overnight, and post those numbers. If it isn't the source water, something is very wrong in the tank. That level of ammonia is highly toxic, especially to saltwater fish and inverts...honestly I am very surprised that anything is alive right now in that tank.

You probably should have your test results verified by a pet store though, to make sure there isn't something wrong with your kits

RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Wed, 21 May 2008 13:22:20 GMT

I tested the water again today and I got some different results.

Theres 2 ppm of Ammonia and 0.5 ppm of nitrite

The lasts tests I did were a while ago so I think thats why it didn't seem right. I have a power filter that came with the tank and I clean the tank twice a week. I think it is my source of water, which is tap water, that is giving me those levels. I will start using distilled water to mix my saltwater to lower those levels.

RE: Cyanide?

Nep2Ns PlumR — Wed, 21 May 2008 10:39:32 GMT

Wonder why the PJ Cardinalfish wasn't affected?

Tanks been up and running for 5 months, it should have long since cycled. With the nitrites being high but not the ammonia or nitrates, makes me wonder what the cause is. You may want to reevaluate what/how much your feeding. Water changes are a must, but if the bacteria levels are where they should be in a cycled tank, you shouldn't need to do more than 20% once monthly. Your 1.5 liters twice a week (4/5 of a gallon per week or 3 1/5 per month) should be sufficient. If more changes are needed, then there's definitely some other problem. Do you employ a protein skimmer? Do you clean it every 3-4 days?

There's also the possibility that the nitrite test isn't reading accurately. Try the test again or even purchase another brand of test and see if the two agree on the results. Hobby grade tests can be highly inaccurate.

Just seems unlikely that only the nitrites would be out of whack!

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Tue, 20 May 2008 19:28:58 GMT

It seems strange then that you are still showing nitrite readings. Definitely test your source water to make sure that does not have nitrite. Also, what kind of filter do you have, and what sort of maintenance do you do on it? It could be just a spike from adding the new fish, but I'd like to rule out other things before assuming that.

RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Tue, 20 May 2008 14:48:59 GMT

The tank has been set up for about 5 months.

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Tue, 20 May 2008 14:33:08 GMT

Water changes are the key. As long as your source water (the water you use to mix with the salt mix) has 0ppm ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, it will bring down any you may have readings for when you do water changes. It wouldn't hurt to check your source water for all three to know where you stand there.

Please answer just one more question for me though. How long has this tank been set up?

RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Tue, 20 May 2008 14:04:07 GMT

Yeah I meant 1.027 for the salinity, sorry. Do you have any suggestions for lowering my nitrite an nitrate levels?

Your information helps a lot. Thanks

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Tue, 20 May 2008 13:53:52 GMT

Well, there's the answer. A nitrite level of 1.5ppm is very high (less extreme in saltwater than it would be in fresh because salt helps with nitrite poisoning, but still very dangerous). Is this tank still cycling? How long has it been set up? Definitely do not add any more fish or invertebrates until the ammonia and nitrite are both 0ppm and staying there.

Also, that is a very small tank, and one cardinal is about all you should have in it for fish. You can squeeze in one, maybe two more small fish, but with the increase in bioload there will need to be a corresponding increase in water changes. I'd change at least 2-2.5 gallons (you were doing less than a half gallon) at each water change (twice a week is good while the tank is cycling, and then could probably drop back to once a week depending on nitrate and phosphate accumulation.

Also be sure to top up the aquarium every day or two with RO or distilled water only...not tap or well, and never water with salt mix added. Your pH is higher than average for saltwater tanks, and so is your specific gravity (which I assume is 1.027, not 1.27), both of which could be signs of evaporation and lack of topping up raising the salt level and hardness slowly over time. In small tanks like yours this can be a serious issue, and is one of the reasons nano tanks are considered difficult to maintain.

And one more thing...when you acclimate, you may want to consider taking more time with it and adding water more slowly. Adding the water too fast, or not adding enough of it over the acclimation period, can really stress the fish and weaken their resistance to pathogens, or it can outright shock and kill them. The best way I have found is drip acclimation so I would look into that next time you have to acclimate a fish. It takes more like an hour or two, but it very safely and effectively adjusts the fish to your tank water.

I hope this helps.

RE: Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Tue, 20 May 2008 13:06:51 GMT

I'll be able to answer most of those questions.

The Ammonia is 0 ppm

The Nitrite level was about 1.5 ppm

The Nitrate level was about 3 ppm

The PH is 8.4

the salinity was 1.27

The tank is 20 gallons and it has live rock and a pajama cardinal that is doing fine. I do a water change of 1.5 liters twice a week. When I accumulate new fish I float the bag with the fish in the tank. Every 5 minutes I add a little bit of water from the tank. After about 30 minutes I let the fish swim into the tank.

I hope those answers help. Thanks

RE: Cyanide?

Nep2Ns PlumR — Tue, 20 May 2008 10:20:13 GMT

Yup. That one was answered in the first post.

Were these the only two fish in the tank? Are there others that are doing fine? How long had you had them? I'd check your water parameters real closely. If all is as it should be........

If anyone has any opinions I would be glad to read them.

....I'd find a new store to deal with. There is the possibility that the store is purchasing fish from an unscrupulous source cheaply, and in turn screwing the customer (actually screwing the hobby as a whole). Good luck solving your delima.

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Tue, 20 May 2008 07:56:03 GMT

Nep2Ns PlumR (5/20/2008)

Did both fish come from the same store?

Yup. That one was answered in the first post.

Sorry, couldn't resist pointing that out (I miss stuff in posts all the time, and it seems I always get caught..lol).

RE: Cyanide?

Nep2Ns PlumR — Tue, 20 May 2008 07:15:15 GMT

Cyanide can take its time killing fish. Some times resulting in lack of feeding that of course starves the fish to death. But here, I'm with Hailey. I just find it hard to beleive that you'd be unlucky enough to get two fishes that were both caught using cyanide. Did both fish come from the same store?

RE: Cyanide?

Hailey — Mon, 19 May 2008 14:19:19 GMT

What would make you think cyanide? The practice of cyanide fishing for ornamental marine fish is not nearly as common as it once was, and reputable stores are not buying fish caught this way. Also, deaths from cyanide poisoning during capture would probably happen long before the fish gets to you...maybe in the place the fish are housed before being shipped off to pet stores.

It is far more likely that something is wrong in your tank. Please answer some questions for us, to help us narrow it down.

First, and most importantly, what are your readings for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, kH, and salinity/specific gravity? Your answers should all be in numbers...answers like "the ammonia is fine" do not help us help you.

What size tank is it?

What kinds of fish are in it?

How long has it been set up?

What is your source water (e.g., tap, RO, spring, well, natural sea water)?

How often do you do water changes, and how much do you change at a time?

How long after you mix your saltwater (assuming you don't buy it premixed) do you wait before doing a water change with it?

What is your acclimation procedure? (In detail please)

I know that is quite a lot of questions, but the more we know, the more likely we will be to solve your problem. Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer them.

Cyanide?

reef aquarist — Mon, 19 May 2008 12:53:54 GMT

I have recently had two fish die. One was a Banggai Cardinalfish and the other was a Fire Dartfish. I first had the Cardinalfish first. It was doing very well for a week but one day I noticed that it was lying on the sandbed but it was still breathing. It died shortly after that. Next I had a fire dartfish which was fine for a day but then it started acting like the Cardinalfish. It tried to dart up from the sand but it would fall back down. It also died. Both of these fish came from the same store and I was wondering if it could have been Cyanide that killed them. I do regular water changes and the water quality seems fine. If anyone has any opinions I would be glad to read them.